kim goodwin decision systems

Kim has spent over 20 years in UX, both consulting and in-house. Kim: The genesis of that term actually is a conference organiser said, “Hey, Kim, come do a talk for us on design systems.” I said, well, I could talk about that, but… I would actually rather talk about enabling what I think is a much bigger issue. But if we’re really about driving user experience, we’ve got to enable the better decisions for everybody. Just as we tend to do with user research, it’s better not to ask that question in the abstract, but to ask for a case specific example. We always build what we’re told to build. Ipsum blandit at sed a, vulputate eget. Those organisations in my experience can be helped. Goodrow, Sherry - Gopichand, Suren > Goodwin, Kiera - Goodwin, Lora > Goodwin, Kimberly - Goodwin, Kinsey > Goodwin, Kimberly. Gerry: Yes. I think they’re useful tools. Gerry: Yes. Can I just do this online? In my experience, most organisations do sincerely mean to live up to their values, but there are lots of barriers in the way, right? How do we put some checks and balances in there? This is not the first time Kim Goodwin takes the stage at From Business to Buttons. Kim: You’re also getting at the third component of decision systems, which is values. I mean. That lets us be more creative if we don’t zero in on the metric first, but we start with the goal, then the metric. James Royal-Lawson Whereas if we had share ownership on a much more individual level more widespread than you have activism, you can you open the door to activism. Gerry: Kim, I want to ask you a question about the role of metrics and goals and values. Per Axbom Which on the positive side means that we can learn from a lot of other industries that have already gone through these issues. But, yeah, you’re not going to get every possible life experience or interest represented in any team. Kim has spent 25 years in Service Design and UX, helping businesses build their internal design capabilities through coaching and organizational change management. I would love to hear about her perspectives and how to best evaluate culture entering into a workplace or building/forming culture and organisational partnerships in nascent design departments. That as a marketing approach. It’s like, but people have been thinking about these things for years, and they’re still trying to figure them out. That’s why I think human-centred maturity might actually be the better metric, which is, does everybody in the organisation understand, how do you talk to humans and understand their needs to make decisions that aren’t about you? And we should be using that same level of rigour in what we’re doing with our products, because, frankly, it’s an interventional study. Well, what the heck do you do with people first? Even so, that’s all still the surface of the user experience. Gerry: Great, I’ll throw a link to your Twitter in the show notes. And make make make it change by buying into some of these companies we want to change. Usually people respond with, “Well, thank god somebody is doing that because it needs to be done.” Then they don’t get confused about what I do. She’s the author of the best-selling book Designing for the Digital Age , a comprehensive guide to interaction, visual, and industrial design as well as the project management, user research, and consensus-building skills that go into building great digital projects. What I’m about is, can we get organisations to make more human decisions at every level across every discipline? I actually think the strength of the human-centred values is the better predictor of how well that organisation is going to evolve in a human centred way. Kim Goodwin is a design and product exec, researcher, speaker, and teacher. And so I think, you know, we need to be specific about how are those constituted? Like, that Gerry fella, he just keeps on throwing massive questions to me, expecting me to answer them. Kim: When we have organisations where the senior executives repeatedly say, “Yes, it’s just not pragmatic to actually live up to our values.” Then that is not going to change until you have a change in executive leadership. And, you know, I see some of that, beginning to evolve. I lived in Australia and I’ve been back in Ireland for a while. Once they get it, they get it. Thanks for listening to bringing design closer. Kim Goodwin For sure. Kim: Two things. In the UX world, Kim Goodwin is a big deal. Because we need to see if we’re hitting those values too hard. Learning Health Systems (LHS) is an international, open access, peer-reviewed journal published in collaboration with the University of Michigan. Fine. And so I think we always need to have a mechanism to go out and listen to people other than ourselves. Per Axbom for me that ties well back to what she was saying in the beginning of the interview about design systems, and what are we spending our time on? Kim: Yes. Right, your immediate product team, your engineering leads, your products leads, all of those folks, you have to get them aligned around how we make decisions more broadly about at least our product in our local area of control. Per Axbom Oh, yeah, I would definitely vote for campaign. That is the user experience of Facebook. James Royal-Lawson Hello, everybody. I think that this is an interesting framework for us on two levels. And Kim is deservedly framed there as author and design leadership guru. Dr. Kim Goodwin became an OB/GYN because she loves "taking care of women and delivering babies is a thrill". James Royal-Lawson None. are we spending our time on things that promote us as designers? I don’t know how you reign in capitalism, unless it’s government. From Business to Buttons is the meeting place for everyone who wants hands-on … Lots of healthcare, mostly consulting, definitely some inhouse, as well. James Royal-Lawson I think that’s that’s definitely the case, when we’re dealing with we’re talking about global products, is what 200 plus countries implied to 200 plus cultures, On top of the Western ideas of different, people that we’ve got, that becomes really difficult to manage. Kim: Well, lots of people would argue that service design, user experience are the same thing. Kim Goodwin In fact, we’re literally doing medical trials in some cases, right? So think of a decision system as how do we support executives in making choices about revenue models? Kim: Those are questions that are actually meaningful that measure the impact of what Facebook is doing overall, and it’s not about them. Please subscribe to the show. Tell us a little bit more, I know you did a great talk as well, in IXTA in Buenos Aires earlier this year. You know, how do you control the incentive side of being part of a review board? You can look at a million products and see ways in which they have been used badly. Kim Goodwin is the bestselling author of Designing for the Digital Age. "We can't win this battle for ideas without any communication system…You can't win a war without being able to communicate." Pretium est ipsum dictum lectus mauris netus. All of these things tell me that we need to be governed in some way. I think that it relates much more closely to how well does the organisation already align to its own values. Gerry: I’m sure. Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0). Start Free. I’m never going to eat chocolate, which would be a huge bummer, and I’m not going to see my family and friends. Per Axbom One ninety… oh, the first time. Tell me the story about how decisions got made on this project? Kim Goodwin Yeah. The FDA recalls your medical product because it killed people, or hopefully nothing like that will happen here. Now, towards the end of the episode, I selected a bunch of questions form the This is HCD Slack channel and pitched them to Kim, which was lots of fun. And I think, yeah, if there had been a woman in the room, even one, yeah, that wouldn’t make it out the door. I guess. I mean, I remember one consultant, he actually built persona living rooms at one of their clients and things like this. Because then the trade offs will start to become apparent to other people. Boosting Research and Design Adoption Kim Goodwin. James Royal-Lawson I think I think we actually had similar kind of reflection, when we talked to her last in Episode 192. But yeah, practice, we’ve still got the fact that now how do you get how do you include the lower end of society, maybe the less wealthy society? Develop an enduring design system by thoughtfully considering color, space, and typography ... Kim Goodwin. Appeal to the values, if strongly held, can get people to do the right thing. Kim: That’s where I think we as designers and product folks and other people who make things have to look at the organisation and say, well, no organisation is perfect at adhering to its values, because values are usually aspirational. Kim Goodwin - From Design Systems to Decision Systems. Pretium est ipsum dictum lectus mauris netus. In an online newspapers, for example, there’s a point in which you put so many ads in there, that the papers literally unreadable, you have completely destroyed your user experience. James Royal-Lawson And I think that was that was good. Yes, or no. Kim Goodwin Right? Listen to UX Podcast episodes free, on demand. Yeah. I think in some cases, designers are complicit in bad decisions, right. ... “It is true that we made the difficult decision to separate. I, I really like the idea of some kind of review board. The thing we want to accomplish, right. 38:36. View Kim Goodwin’s profile on LinkedIn, the world's largest professional community. We’ve been back and forth for a while about organisational structures and design systems and decision systems. We want to push the boundaries of how user experience … How do we grow and thrive as a community? And, and there’s nothing wrong with spending some time on our own tools. Yeah, this helps users. James Royal-Lawson I think you’re right. So let’s say that you’re a pharmaceutical company, developing a drug. Ms. Kim Goodwin administers the Continental Divide Project which is a large-scale collaboration to prevent weed movement across … And I just think we don’t need to gold plate our tools. The way that organisations use values I think is mostly ineffective because you do have those posters on the wall that say: People first. You know, sometimes the the metric is sort of an a leading indicator of profit. And then we start to get into the weird territorial thing of is everybody a designer or not? Give that person the list of roles that are usually important to involve; then advise him to include anyone else who has inform… I find those organisations make slower progress. No, it’s not fine. So that sounds good. But their values are pretty strongly human-centred and even if they’re doing it inexpertly, for the most part, they’ve been making pretty good decisions, even if the surface level of the product doesn’t look great. I think everybody has probably heard about this one, where the YouTube recommendation algorithm, in order to drive engagement and pushing people toward pretty extreme content, at whatever end of the spectrum they’re looking at. I switch between different explanations of what I do. And I think that when you have say, young tech savvy people designing all these systems, yeah, there’s a certain assumption that there’s a level of literacy and comfort. Justice Goodwin Liu and Ann O’Leary, in happier times — with Governor Jerry Brown. And just hearing it and just remembering the state at first that we were in when we were listening to her and her responses, and listening it back to it now, just confirming that she’s one of the few people you can actually pose really complex questions. 75. A transcript of Episode 221 of UX Podcast. It’s the Nuremberg Code actually works pretty well. And you know what, the job isn’t always going to be there. But of course we want, you know, I think that that that review board keeps us honest, it’s a way to say, we’re going to hold you accountable. Kim, we’re sitting in a room, here they are, design systems, we’re sick of them already. I think we’re going to get some weird effects. Then you have to break that down further. James Royal-Lawson I mean, is there a degree of transparency with it as well, or.. James Royal-Lawson I was just thinking about review boards, and they would, would we would we want any level of transparency with that process? ... Goodwin. I think people need to start reflecting on. I think there’s a huge benefit in design systems, but I think you’re right, there is a gap there between understanding the North Star, what it is, where the organisational is trying to achieve by implementing them. That sort of thing, then the design system is only going to be as good as the ethics and guidelines that we build into that algorithm, right? Why don’t we learn from others who’ve gone before, right? But yeah, some part of making tech more humane is going to be dependent on governments, just as companies are not going to do this on their own. What is the path we need to take now? If there’s increasing evidence that a lot of internet usage is increasing depression and suicidality, and people no joke. Kim, thank you so much for joining us today. All right. You can also ask; how did you measure success? And I think, you know, diversity plays into making better decisions in a couple of ways. You have an opportunity to say, here’s a way we could have gone about this differently. But But getting there is complex and creates a lot of additional challenges. So I guess I think of it is, it’s like the trade off, we all make professionally, we can pour all of ourselves into work. Kim, we’re coming towards the end of the episode here. Is this actually of benefit to the population that we’re talking about? They can’t, those fundamental needs have to be met. Does that mean learnable? It’s one of the organisations that I particularly hone-in on probably too much unfairly. Let’s start off, what’s the relationship between a design system and a decision system? How are you doing that? We send an email every two weeks and will never share you data with another organisation. As a goal on that we’re prepared to sacrifice others on the way to achieving that self actualisation. You mentioned, as well, then Nuremberg code, talking of…. @DevinNunes is a strong proponent of alternative social media platforms like #Parler & #Rumble, which value free speech. What data influenced that decision or who influenced that decision? But yeah, there’s a population of people. It allows you to work quicker, work faster, but my thing is, it can also allow you to work quicker and faster in the wrong direction. Design systems are increasingly popular, and with good reason: When done right, they help us create better user experiences across an organization, with less effort. That doesn’t mean that designers are doing all the work. James Royal-Lawson How many economists does it take to change a light bulb? But we don’t tend to measure these things, right, because we don’t spend time thinking about them. Yeah. James Royal-Lawson so so this is kind of like micro things are changing here and there, no, you’re just kind of you just scratting in the sand a little bit. Gerry: This is a good area, because one of the things that I have on my mind is a situation in an organisation where teams are working on things where if you ask one set of customers, they might go, “That’s really cool.” Then another one might go, “Well, actually, that’s kind of bad.” The design team know intrinsically that this is something that’s not truly human-centred. Â. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. We discussed the world of extending design systems within organisations, to decision systems to help steer the organisations towards more human-centredness. And I don’t just mean the review board. Kim Goodwin …nice light cheerful subjects! Who made that decision and how? But the level of effort I see go into some design systems, I think, Wow, that’s a lot of time to spend obsessing over your own tools. How did you decide what to even build? I think user experience is an important concept that users have an experience with all aspects of a system, including customer service and everything else that we don’t touch, but claiming that we own that I think is, let me be blunt, ridiculous. Honestly, it’s ten years old, so I’ve learned a few things in the meantime that I would like to update it with. If not, it’s not a real value, it’s just marketing. We discussed the world of extending design systems within organisations, to decision systems to help steer the organisations towards more human-centredness. James Royal-Lawson Kim says we need them, I think we need them. So shouldn’t designers be engaged in – Is there an alternate business model that might be a healthier relationship between Facebook and user and its users? And we can’t be actualize as a community, and we can’t survive as cultures, if we’re so focused on the individual. And also, you know, that there are people talking about things like consequence scanning, and can we identify potential negative consequences? James Royal-Lawson Yeah, no, I think is important, the community aspect as well, the Maslow’s need that it is to, it drives us too much towards individualism. But community actualization is really more of the goal. Gerry: Yes, absolutely. James Royal-Lawson And I think, you know, when you balance, those balances, of business and and, and users or I suppose Kim said the two things was measuring the thing you’re trying to achieve, and they’re measuring the thing you’re not willing to sacrifice to get there?

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